How many times did UP 844+3985 go on the road together? (2024)

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I know of 1981, then of course 1991, but I suppose there were other trips with both working together?

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

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RailRat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know of 1981, then of course 1991, but I suppose
> there were other trips with both working together?

1999, enroute to Sacramento for Railfair 1999.

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Overnighting at Carlin, Nevada, April, 1981.

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As mentioned, they doubleheaded from Cheyenne to Sacramento and back for all three Railfairs: 1981, 1991, 1999. '99 was when #844 had the boiler tube failure, so it was towed cold back to Cheyenne behind #3985 (plus a diesel for backup.)

They also doubleheaded on two Cheyenne Frontier Days specials. First, in 1996, #3985 and #6936 pulled the train from Denver to Cheyenne, then newly overhauled #844 replaced the Centennnial for the return leg from Cheyenne to Denver. The two steamers then deadheaded the consist back to Cheyenne the next day. Then, in 2005, #844 (again fresh from overhaul) and #3985 deadheaded Cheyenne to Denver, then departed Denver with the special... but #3985 quickly suffered mechanical problems and was set out. #844 then completed the trip with diesel assist.

So, five trips total, though each trip had at least two days of operation.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/21 18:29 by DRGWMark.

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DRGWMark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As mentioned, they doubleheaded from Cheyenne to
> Sacramento and back for all three Railfairs: 1981,
> 1991, 1999. '99 was when #844 had the boiler tube
> failure, so it was towed cold back to Cheyenne
> behind #3985 (plus a diesel for backup.)
>
> They also doubleheaded on two Cheyenne Frontier
> Days specials. First, in 1996, #3985 and #6936
> pulled the train from Denver to Cheyenne, then
> newly overhauled #844 replaced the Centennnial for
> the return leg from Cheyenne to Denver. The two
> steamers then deadheaded the consist back to
> Cheyenne the next day. Then, in 2005, #844 (again
> fresh from overhaul) and #3985 deadheaded Cheyenne
> to Denver, then departed Denver with the
> special... but #3985 quickly suffered mechanical
> problems and was set out. #844 then completed the
> trip with diesel assist.
>
> So, five trips total, though each trip had at
> least two days of operation.

Geez, the Steam Crew must've done a great job on 844 if it needed overhauls which finished in 1996 and 2005

Posted from Android

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Yes when you run an engine a lot you need to overhaul it... especially when it doesn't have a diesel pushing it the whole time

Posted from Android

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More like: You burn through the 1472-days of 'boiler time' fairly quickly.....
Because there are days when you're not moving, but you've got a fire in her belly.
That costs you....

The 1472-day 'deadline' became law in year 2000.
The law states that sufficient flues have to be removed to permit
boiler-shell interior seams to be thoroughly cleaned & inspected, every
15-years, or 1472-days of a 'fired' boiler-time, whichever occurs first.

4 X 368 = 1472; engines that are run frequently, burn through those 4-years fast.
You can stretch that to 5 years, if you can document the days with no fire in the engine;
counting "out of service" days . But, your record keeping must be rigorous, and well
documented with reports filed in a timely manner with the FRA.

When you've reached 368 + out-of-service days equal to 5 years .... do the boiler shell
interior inspection.

If you carefully document the O/S days.....you can go to 15-years before flue removal.
At 15 years of "time" you must do the interior inspection. Whenever the inspection is
done at the 5-year'limit', that re-sets the 15-year 'clock' to zero & counting...

Frequent flue removals are 'hard' on the front and rear flue sheets & the flue holes
get damaged, knicked and distorted....requiring the sheet's replacement, also.

The biggest advantage to the scheme is that it gives newbies ample opportuiny
to build experience and muscle-memory in man-handling the boiler tools and
building their welding-skills..on a more frequent basis.
We're making younger and youngerboilermakers!

There is REAL ART and powerful muscles, to that craft.... that you can only 'get' by doing...

​W.

​

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/21 20:43 by wcamp1472.

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SierraRail Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Overnighting at Carlin, Nevada, April, 1981.

Nice!

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

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goduckies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes when you run an engine a lot you need to
> overhaul it... especially when it doesn't have a
> diesel pushing it the whole time
>
> Posted from Android

So, 844s 1999 - 2005 Overhaul had nothing to do with it having a tube failure at the Railfair?

Could've fooled me though

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What role could 'over-rolling' of the 844's flues play in the failure?

Its not likely that the tubes had a defect in the 'body' --- most likely
an inexperienced installation crew?
At the ends where the tribes are expanded into the flue sheet holes
is where 99% of the failures/problems arise.

Such failures quickly extinguished firebox usefullness.

Any insights about 844's.problems.?

W.

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wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like: You burn through the 1472-days of
> 'boiler time' fairly quickly.....
> Because there are days when you're not moving, but
> you've got a fire in her belly.
> That costs you....
>
> The 1472-day 'deadline' became law in year 2000.
>
> The law states that sufficient flues have to be
> removed to permit
> boiler-shell interior seams to be thoroughly
> cleaned & inspected, every
> 15-years, or 1472-days of a 'fired' boiler-time,
> whichever occurs first.
>
> 4 X 368 = 1472; engines that are run frequently,
> burn through those 4-years fast.
> You can stretch that to 5 years, if you can
> document the days with no fire in the engine;
> counting "out of service" days . But, your
> record keeping must be rigorous, and well
> documented with reports filed in a timely manner
> with the FRA.
>
> When you've reached 368 + out-of-service days
> equal to 5 years .... do the boiler shell
> interior inspection.
>
> If you carefully document the O/S days.....you can
> go to 15-years before flue removal.
> At 15 years of "time" you must do the interior
> inspection. Whenever the inspection is
> done at the 5-year'limit', that re-sets the
> 15-year 'clock' to zero & counting...
>
> Frequent flue removals are 'hard' on the front and
> rear flue sheets & the flue holes
> get damaged, knicked and distorted....requiring
> the sheet's replacement, also.
>
> The biggest advantage to the scheme is that it
> gives newbies ample opportuiny
> to build experience and muscle-memory in
> man-handling the boiler tools and
> building their welding-skills..on a more frequent
> basis.
> We're making younger and youngerboilermakers!
>
> There is REAL ART and powerful muscles, to that
> craft.... that you can only 'get' by doing...
>
> ​W.
>
> ​

Thanks Wes for the 1472 explanation.
I was pretty confused about it until now you explained it perfectly!

Plus just made the connection in my brain that 1472 is part of your username too!, you are the King Professor of Steam Loco Education and Explanation! (PSLE) ?? :)

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/21 21:32 by RailRat.

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What can occur with riveted boiler seams is that dissolved calcium
salts can seep into seams and minute cracks and crevices.

Over time, the calcium molecules get interspersed in the steel's crystalline structures
thus, making them more brittle---- eventually, the brittleness spreads and seams can
join their cracks together.

The crystalline structures are made of the linkages between the iron atoms and the
carbon atoms....without the calcium contamination, thosemolecular bonds give steel its elasticity
and flexibility---- calcium penetration makesthe steel structures rigid and breakable--- like glass...

The boilers, being under pressure, force the calcium molecules deeper and deeper into the steel
at the seams and cracks.

So, edges of seams, edges of rivets around the seams, and related seam areas
can link together, rivet-hole-to-hole-to-hole. On circumferential boiler seams, the cracks can join,
hole to holefor great lengths. Thus, you could get a seam that comes apart, zipper-like, and
could cause a boiler explosion. That's what you're looking-for during those boiler
inspections, with the tubes removed...

All of the "embrittlement" occurs below the water-line. So, careful examination of the seams
is the crucial aspect of the internal boiler inspection.

Obviously, the quality of the water sources is crucial to the calcium presence and amounts.
If you have good, clean, calcium-free water , embrittlement is less of a problem.
( Which is why in commercial power plants, and in marine use, boiler water is treated
externally to the boiler....the feed-water is said to be 'softer' .... as opposed to 'hard' water)

So, there is real concern about the 1472- day inspection periods, coupled with
waters that contain high amounts of dissolved calcium-salts --- more common in the western states.

With the productiom of boiler shells now being manufactured with today's
advanced welding technologies, and X-ray seam inspections, riveted seams are no longer used.
I don't know if the risks are mitigated, changed, or by how much.

If others have more up-to -date information on all welded loco boilers, I could learn a lot.

Stay tuned...

​W.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/21 22:26 by wcamp1472.

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Hey Wes,this is funny, or wierd, (your mileage my vary) I just noticed this after scratching a ticket.
Take a look at the 1st 4 numbers associated with all "Silver and Gold" California Scratchers, to the left, on top of barcode on back of tickets.
Don't know why the pictures turned out uploaded sideways?

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/21 00:10 by RailRat.

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wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What can occur with riveted boiler seams is that
> dissolved calcium
> salts can seep into seams and minute cracks and
> crevices.
>
> Over time, the calcium molecules get interspersed
> in the steel's crystalline structures
> thus, making them more brittle---- eventually, the
> brittleness spreads and seams can
> join their cracks together.
>
> The crystalline structures are made of the
> linkages between the iron atoms and the
> carbon atoms....without the calcium contamination,
> thosemolecular bonds give steel its elasticity
> and flexibility---- calcium penetration makesthe
> steel structures rigid and breakable--- like
> glass...
>
> The boilers, being under pressure, force the
> calcium molecules deeper and deeper into the
> steel
> at the seams and cracks.
>
> So, edges of seams, edges of rivets around the
> seams, and related seam areas
> can link together, rivet-hole-to-hole-to-hole.
> On circumferential boiler seams, the cracks can
> join,
> hole to holefor great lengths. Thus, you could
> get a seam that comes apart, zipper-like, and
> could cause a boiler explosion. That's what
> you're looking-for during those boiler
> inspections, with the tubes removed...
>
> All of the "embrittlement" occurs below the
> water-line. So, careful examination of the
> seams
> is the crucial aspect of the internal boiler
> inspection.
>
> Obviously, the quality of the water sources is
> crucial to the calcium presence and amounts.
> If you have good, clean, calcium-free water ,
> embrittlement is less of a problem.
> ( Which is why in commercial power plants, and in
> marine use, boiler water is treated
> externally to the boiler....the feed-water is said
> to be 'softer' .... as opposed to 'hard' water)
>
> So, there is real concern about the 1472- day
> inspection periods, coupled with
> waters that contain high amounts of dissolved
> calcium-salts --- more common in the western
> states.
>
> With the productiom of boiler shells now being
> manufactured with today's
> advanced welding technologies, and X-ray seam
> inspections, riveted seams are no longer used.
> I don't know if the risks are mitigated, changed,
> or by how much.
>
> If others have more up-to -date information on all
> welded loco boilers, I could learn a lot.
>
> Stay tuned...
>
> ​W.

On a much, much smaller scale, compared to the pressures and heat ofa steam locomotive boiler, my job is delivering and installing major appliances.

Many times the customer's refrigerator cold water valve or washer cold and hot valve and hoses, that has been un-used in 10 + years, are completely corroded with calcium and minerals to the point of not being able to:

(A) Not being able to even turn valve off because of corrosion and mineral buildup inside the valve and valve stem

(B) Not being able to unscrew the threaded hose coupling from the valve due to same situation, usually on the hot valve, there is a lot more corrosion, sometimes to the point of what I call the hose coupling being "welded" to the valve threads.

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

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YES!!

One way to avoid problems is to avoid forcing the valve srem
when at the wide-open position.

Most 'globe'-valves open the passage way in about 4 complete turns.
Opening the valve fully to the back-stop does not make the passageway
through the valve any wider than the port opening.

The packing nut should compress the packing material sufficiently tight
to the valve stemthat vibration will not allow the stem to turn.

in Home-owner's uses, It is a good practice to close and open these valves
on an annual basis... Keeps them limber..

Another good practice is to take the new valve apart and liberally coat
the interior mechanisms and the valve stem with a good quality
Anti-Sieze compound. Then reassemble the valve, & when opening the
valve, NEVER bring it to a jammed position, at its back-stop.

In locomotives and very hot situations, NEVER back-stop an open valve,
always leave it about 1 or two turns free from the back-stop position.
A cold valve body, when heated can 'galled' to the vakve stem and, in
case of necessity, in the future, the stem cannot be easily closed...that could be a bad situation.

Another aspect of calcium penetration....
Boilers are evaporative containers.....steam is the pure gas state of H2O,
so, minerals are not carried in the steam journey. The boilers are great
concentrators of the water's impurities ---- when evaporating a whole tender's full
of water.... that all gets very concentrated in the soup of the boiler water...

This concentraion principle results in greater calcium density --- and accelerates
the calcium salt's penetration capabilities, as the percentage of concentration
continually increases.....mingling into the inter-molecular spaces at cracks and seams
of the boiler steels.

Blowing down boilers, aids a little-bit, because adding make-up water tends to dilute
the concentrations. But, crews fail to blown-down often enough to reduce the concentrations
to any significant degree.

Appreciation of these facts, and acting to correct them, is crucial to good boiler management.

The most beneficial aspect of boiler washes is the complete drain & refill with fresh water....
that is when the calcium salts are the most diluted---- once underway, these concentrations
accumulate & increase..

Adding large amounts of 'boiler treatment' chemicals' worsens the sutuation.
And can add to the dangerous propensity for easier foaming inside the boiler.
( Foaming's BAD aspect is that the water in the crew sight glass can be at a higher level
than what actually covers the crown sheet...).

The best benefit of ( mild application ) water treatments is that they tend to keep the sediments
from baking hard to the steel surfaces--- so, that at washout time, the rinsing spray
has an easier time of moving the 'mud' to the bottom wash out plugs, and out.

​W.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/21 07:15 by wcamp1472.

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Referring to your familiarity with "appliances" and calcium buildup...

I like your story, about appliances and plumbing.
Because it illustrates how learning becomes most effective.

It is when students, and eager learners, can draw relationships between the familiar,
to the 'new', that is the basis towards deeper understanding of the new fields of interest.

It is crucial that our brains can take an "understood situation" & experiences, and draw
parallels to new, and puzzling concepts that we get exposed to. It is the foundation to
umderstanding.

I strive to provide familiar, every day, examples that folks relate to, and try to build on those
foundations, when explaining steam loco 'peculiarities...'. things become more clear, when
explained in terms that folks are used-to in their daily experiences.

Superheating applied to steam locos is an early demarcation hallmark, from the "old way",
to the scientific-way.

Until the 1920s, most steam loco manufacturing and operations were the the result of
'experiential learning'...they found-out the 'hard way', what "worked" and what didn't...
So, evolutionary improvements were slow in coming. Things had to be experienced before
folks realized the magnitude of forces at work -- that ruined their basic," first steps & ideas".

As universities, 'engineering' degrees, and places of higher learning grew in the late 1800s
and early 20th century,trained and educated fellows came along and brought along the slide rule..
.and mathematics tothe industrial fields of manufacturing techniques, naval ship construction,
railroads, locomotives, &architecture....
The 20th century was off and roaring...propelled by books, studies, and education.

Thank you for your interest and sharing your paths to deeper understanding.
Its heartening to know that learning is spreading...not only on your part, but to many other readers.

​Wes Camp.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/21 09:43 by wcamp1472.

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dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is what happened to 3985 listening to the
> steam presentations, a lot of problems, needing an
> overhaul

Do you believe the load of crap that is coming out of your mouth right now? The real reason is the current manager has a major malice towards the previous crew & the crews that restored 3985 in 1981. That is why 3985 faded into history, because of the crap that was coming out of the current managers mouth & you chose to listen to him. There will come the time that the current manager will be exposed & I can't wait for that to happen.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/21 18:37 by UPChallenger3985.

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